Interview on Hassen Hnini
Introduction
Interviewer: Max Mannola
Hassen Hnini is 41 years old, born in Tunisia. For 7 years he has been working in Loisto Setlementti, a non-religious organization, in the unit Sopu, which works on honour-related violence, with the approach of cultural and gender sensitivity. Hassen is an expert on preventive honor-related violence work. He has been working in NGO’s for 21 years.
Hassen started working as a volunteer for preventing HIV/AIDS in Tunisia. He then as a university student became interested in human rights of minorities in general, and then especially sexual minorities, during the dictatorship. (A bit surprisingly, homosexuality had at that time better rights than nowadays, after the “Arab spring” which turned out to be something else than most people wanted.) He then became a consultant within the UNDP system and travelled for two years to different countries in Africa and Middle East to train people how to talk about human and minorities’ rights. Those years 2009-2010 were a lot of work with decision makers in Egypt and Morocco.
He came to Finland in 2012 and started to work in the Red Cross and then in the Helsinki Pride community, being the Chairman of the City Pride in 2018 and 2019. Hassen felt good being in those communities organizing events and empowering each other. He has been in the European network for queer Muslims, which usually meets once in the year in e.g. Netherlands, where there is Maroof, an organization for queer Muslim having a really good platform for activists.
BuraQ ry, a queer Muslim association in Finland, was started in 2020, building it little by little by Hassen and a few others. The first meeting was just the day before Independence Day, the 5th of December, the. They started a project called Islamia Queers, which was funded by Koneen Säätiö. Online you can find a lot of articles about Islamic queer people, like Imam Mohsen Henry, who is an openly gay man from South Africa. The project also included Islamic art, and through it many BuraQ activities were funded.
BuraQ also organized a Ramadan event, which was an opportunity for queer people to spend time together with friends, if you have been “kicked out” from your family because having “come out from the closet”. The first couple of years, there was only one event, but then the need grew, and all people didn’t find the time for specifically that day, so BuraQ started organizing it even weekly. The evenings include eating, art, discussions about e.g. sexual education or sense of belonging, identity questions. The important thing was not to do special Ramadan things, to fast or so, but to be together. We all had Muslim background but were not necessarily “practicing”.
Hassen insists on the thing, that in the following interview he will be representing only himself, with his background, not the whole Muslim community. Nobody has “voted” him there. He feels, here in Finland when we talk about Islam, there is much generalization. When people here speak about Christianity, they see the differences between the church itself and one or several subgroups. But in Islam, they will have only 2 brands like the Sunnah and the Shia. And inside them, you have different groups, scholarship and interpretations, like Wahhabist or Sufi groups. Then, when you go to e.g. Tunisia, the country’s culture starts to affect the Islam, and when you think something is Islamic practice, it might not be one, but instead a cultural practice, to which people adapt without thinking from where it’s coming. A good example is female genital mutilation, which is a cultural practice from the whole Nil valley, having nothing to do with Islamic practices.
When a religion starts somewhere, it is influenced by the local culture of the starting region, and then when it spreads elsewhere, people build upon it using their local culture. Hassen’s culture is the North African one, there were the amazing people before the Arab invasion, and much later the actual countries (Tunisia with neighbors) were formed by the colonialists. Hassen’s family lines also have something coming from the South of Spain or from the Turkish area: countries are mosaics, a lot of layers and groups inside.
(Hassen gives a light example of a double standard we can have: celebrating “pikkujoulu” is regarded as non-religious, cultural, but celebrating Ramadan is considered religious, while it is also cultural!)
Questions and answers
1. How would you define equality?
According to Hassen, equality is to have the same opportunities, same rights, and freedom as anyone else in the society, regardless of your personal characteristics like your sexual orientation, your gender or your religion. Equality is also to keep your identity from the sexual orientation to the religious one, meaning to be a Muslim and gay person at the same time without being discriminated against, judged or questioned by others.
Equality for one community is also to have an as wide range of voices heard than from other communities. Do we hear enough voices in the media from e.g. the Muslim “data community” or other successful groups, or from new arrivals who work hard but are traumatized people? Or do we only hear about the women who have domestic violence or about terrorists with a bomb shouting “Allahu Akbar”? Indeed, those cases happen, but this is the narrative always emphasized, and it shall not be the only example of a Muslim person or country. Are we empowering the people who challenge our view, or do we only enforce the narrative that we want about Islam?
A verse of the Quran is saying justice shall be irrespective of race, gender or statute (slave vs free person). Islam is built on this justice and equality, but it is we humans who start to segregate ourselves. Hassen drew the example of the wall, behind which there are 3 persons wanting to see over it, all are standing on the same level but only the tallest sees above the wall, which cannot be seen as justice in the end.
In theory, women in Islam have even more rights than men, as the man has the duty to provide financial security to the family, also to his parents, but the woman may keep her heritage for herself. In Muhammad’s time, there was a practice in fights to rather kill the girls than to let them be kidnapped by the enemy, and the Prophet told this practice had to stop.
And through history, there has also been famous persons who did not conform to the hetero norm, for example Abû Nuwâs, an Arab poet from the 18th century, who wrote erotic poems and loved both men and women. Islamic culture at that time was more open to diverse love than many modern countries nowadays.
2. How do you perceive equality and human rights when it comes to your religious community? You can look at them both within your faith community (majorities vs. minorities) and outside it (your faith community vs. other faith communities).
Hassen confirms there is a big gap between ideals and practice within his religious community, concerning being accepted as a Muslim and gay. Islam is compassion and justice; you need to take care of yourself and of each other. But in practice, some interpretations create the hierarchy that we see especially around sexuality and gender issues. The majority often holds more power and can marginalize those of us with an identity that diverges from the traditional one. God says his mercy compensates all, but people forget it and start judging others. Hassen does not blame Islam, he blames the people who interpret it. LGBT’s face the challenge from both the conservative interpretation and the cultural pressure.
The major challenge is the interpretation of the Islamic teaching on the LGBT rights. Many Muslim majority cultures view homosexuality as sinful. But this comes more from the traditional cultural norm than from explicit Quranic prohibition. The Quran mentions homosexuality in the context of the story of Lot’s people, when the people of Sodoma and Gomorra want to take them by force and rape them, like robbers did, so there are levels that do not express at all the identity of gay or homosexual nowadays. And there are no verses in the Quran that tell e.g. “Man, don’t love another man”.
There can be discrimination from many sides, first from those who have the power in Islam and interpret it, and secondly from the Finnish society depending on how they see gay Muslims or what kind of picture it wants to give about them. You need to navigate between those two sides. Sunni communities emphasize family and social harmony, but topics like sexuality are often considered as a taboo.
When it comes to women’s rights, the Quran speaks about both equality and complementary roles. In a marriage, there are not couples, but partners. They have different roles, and nobody is “under”. However, some communities uphold the patriarchal norm and limit the leadership and public life of women. But this is not because of Islam, this is because of the patriarchal society and the power that men do not want to lose. And this happens in every society.
Concerning the “zina” (sex outside marriage), the condition for punishing this by killing is to have four witnesses, who look at the act from a very close distance. So, because this never happens, God is in practice telling us this is impossible to witness. Despite that, in some countries’ laws it is thought a man and woman are “planning” the “zina” if they are alone in a room.
You need to return to the context and know why a verse exists. The hadiths were written by humans, not God, for explaining. Some of them are strong and some are not, and those are sometimes used against us. They play with hadiths when the Quran is too difficult. Dr Scott, Siraj Al-Hak, is an openly gay Islamic scholar, who has really pushed boundaries by exploring inclusive Islamic interpretation. He wrote a book called Homosexuality in Islam, where he argues that Islam teaching can embrace LGBT identity. But he also faced very harsh backlash, illustrating how difficult it is for LGBT Muslims to gain acceptance.
On the other hand, Islamic scholars from the prestigious Azhar-al-Sharif institution have power, and presidents don’t want to make them angry, because they need their voice to calm people, to not have revolution in the streets. They want to use Islam to gain power and to control people, especially in dictatorships. In our days, Islam is not more a religious relation between God and you, it is a political Islam.
3. What is not working and should be improved in terms of equality and human rights within your faith community or, for example, in relation to other communities?
Hassen starts that there is a lot of stigmata related to being someone with LGBT identity while also belonging to the Islamic community. There is a widespread hesitancy or even outride condemnation of even talking of LGBT related issues. This has led the community into a situation where individuals feel invisible and consider themselves being “wrong” or “sinners” because their identity clashes with what is traditionally held as the correct mode of living. They isolate themselves and are afraid of the consequences to tell their identity openly. They might even feel they can’t be Muslims while having LGBT identity because they have not been taught alternative Interpretations of key verses in the Quran for example. Islamic Centers lack resources or education on modern LGBT issues.
Hassen adds that Islamic community should improve the position of women regarding leadership roles. Female imams for example are rarely considered as valid faith community leaders. While Islam recognizes women’s right to education, work and inheritance, culture practice often limits the right. And when a brother and sister inherit land, the brother often does not want to give any land to the sister, as this might go to another man if she is married. But God clearly says they should get as big a share.
Hassen hopes for more open discussion relating to LGBT issues, as at this moment few are willing to talk about these matters at all, due to fear of backlash or condemnation. He adds that empathy and understanding are key values in Islam and these two values should be better employed relating to treatment of sexual minorities. Islam also forbids bad conduct and oppression. Some Muslims think LGBT people are immoral, but if you compare to Sodoma and Gomorra: “We don’t rape or force anybody, how could we be immoral?!” Hassen wonders.
He adds that the lack of safe space for LGBT is a serious issue. The current culture of silence leads to the mental suffering of LGBT individuals and identity crisis between sexual- and cultural identity. Even in Western countries such as in Finland LGBT individuals are often lonely and they face additional challenges due to racism and assumed stereotypes of Muslims. And often, for newcomer LGBT Muslims, the isolation from their own community and the individualism of this society feels like a “double punishment”. Hassen praises the openly gay imam Abdullah in the USA, who has created safe discussion spaces and teaches Islam with an inclusive approach.
4. How do these same things work for your faith community abroad / on a global scale?
5. What kind of minority rights movements exist in your faith community? What does exist abroad and what does exist in Finland?
The answers to questions number 4 and 5 are combined into the same chapter.
Hassen states that the situation relating the position of the LGBT community around the world varies greatly. In more conservative countries members of this community face discrimination and might be punished by the justice system. It might also be problematic to separate cultural and religious influences from each other. According to Hassen, there is at least some discussion relating LGBT matters but how such matters are discussed is influenced by religious interpretations and traditions. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is often revoked, while Islam has clearer “punishments” for many other “sins”.
In other countries such as the USA, Canada, UK, Netherlands, Germany, Norway, there is more room and acceptance for discussion. There are inclusive movements in these countries creating space for Muslim LGBT individuals. In the United States, there is the organization “Muslim for Progressive Values”, which advocates for inclusive interpretation of Islam that supports LGBT rights, gender equality and other progressive causes. The Eman Foundation in the UK fosters safe spaces and campaigns against homophobia within the Muslim community. Sabaah in Copenhagen also started a support group for Muslim parents of LGBT youth helping the dialogue with their child. Those organizations highlight the reinterpretation and contextual understanding of the Quran, which can support the more inclusive faith practice.
Those movements are in stark contrast with some Muslim majority countries, where homosexuality is criminalized, and LGBT individuals face imprisonment or even death penalty. In Turkey, the LGBT community in Istanbul is very open and visible, but the crack down on their rights has increased. Then there are cases, where Muslims from for example Tunisia are quite inclusive in their countries, but turn more conservative when they get out from their country.
There are also females as leaders of prayer, like the female imam Sherin Khankan in Copenhagen who is very respected there and conducts marriages and divorces, or as scholars like Mrs Emina in the USA, originating from South Africa. Organizations like Salam Canada help people to reconcile faith and sexuality by offering a resource supportive community.
These movements are still relatively underground, many people do not know about them. They might avoid visibility, because it can lead to backlash that puts you in a freeze position or might scare other members. Also with Prides, you need to know how to balance the information to not create bad consequences. Give knowledge or just say “I exist”?
Hassen says that the current LGBT Muslim community in Finland is small and lacking resources for a full-time organization. Also because of their hidden and repressed status in their faith community, many have also stopped practicing their faith altogether, feeling that they are perhaps not Muslims anymore.
Hassen insists we need to give space to LGBT people within the existing organizations, like for example Loisto Setlementti, which has the boys’ house and the girls’ house, and a lot of youth coming, including Muslim background. We do not have to create something new with a Muslim stamp, if we can give the space here already without the “box”.
In the Ottoman empire, there was a very good “recording” system about juridical cases, but no record has yet been found about punishments for homosexuality. In Tunisia at that time (which was part of that empire), there was no law which criminalized homosexuality, on the contrary there were official “sex workplaces”. At that time, Tunisia was even more progressive than Europe but had French colonial laws which condemned homosexuality.
Later, Western European countries removed those laws from themselves, but North African countries wanted to be different from their colonizers and did not remove them. In Lebanon, the law forbids “unnatural acts”, but judges are not unanimous about the definition, so the law is not activated. But in Egypt, they make “traps” against homosexuals… African countries are still not completely independent in practice, our leaders work for some others. And as there is “constant drama” in Arab countries, particularly in the Middle East, there has not been time for “building” the societies, like Europe did after the two World Wars.
Hassen adds that the knowledge of LGBT matters in society is growing and hopefully in the future their position gets better. Currently Hassen focuses on informing Muslim and wider Finnish society of the current issues and how they could be solved. The same work also continues in other Nordic countries.
6. In what ways could either people outside your faith community or the Finnish society help to make equality and human rights work even better in your faith community?
Hassen starts by saying that Finnish society can play a big role in promoting equality and human rights and people are eager to do this. But sometimes people’s methods might be even harmful or destructive. He reminds us that change inside a religious community needs to come organically, and not by force outside.
He says that Finnish society’s strongpoint is the school system which is currently one of the best in the world. He thinks that one way we could as a society help for example LGBT people inside religious communities is by investing in good quality of religious education, where exegesis would play a big role. Students should get a good understanding of where particular verses are coming from and how their interpretation has been varied according to different times and places.
Finnish society needs also to accept that a religious community naturally includes different opinions ranging from conservative to more liberal expression. Voices of progressive, queer Muslims, and voices of new interpretation of Islam are never included in the education. They should, and this should not be on activists’ shoulders.
Hassen also reminds us that we should always respect the autonomy of oppressed persons. They might want to talk about their experiences, but they might not be willing to leave their religious group. Hassen gives an example: telling such a person to go to a safe house is right in some cases (such as in threat of violence) but we need to respect each person’s right to choose their choices. Leaving a religious group of one’s birth might force that person to pay a high price for freedom, such as losing a connection to one’s family and friends.
A certain way of “coming out” for a LGBT person is not the only truth. And there are other ways than verbal communication. For example, you can put clothes with a strong color “breaking the rules” and still be accepted.
A partnership between Finnish LGBT or LGBT-friendly organizations and Muslim groups could offer sensitive training to address the unique needs of LGBT. The Finnish partner should ask for more of this kind of training, how to speak, how to be, how to give support for the Muslim community. Someone may think Muslims do not want to talk about gays, but they talk if you know how to talk.
7. What kind of actions (statements, legislation, rules, etc.) should be avoided in order to promote equality and human rights, and why?
Hassen says that focusing solely on LGBT or equality rights will not work as long as there is too much racism in the Finnish society and too many double standards. The majority of a religious or ethnic group feels that they are not accepted as full members of society in everyday life. They are asked to accept the values of the society but are still rejected because they look different, and then they have to find an accepting group somewhere else.
Racism can lead to segregation, “societies inside the society”, and to increasing radicalization inside religious groups. This in turn makes society treat minority groups with suspicion and increase the popularity of the extremist right which views immigrants negatively. This is what happened in France, where the 3rd or 4th generation of North Africans often do not feel French but are not African either, so they can only stick to each other. Those people may not know Islam but listen to radical values from jihadist preachers, and are thus “lost” from the progressive values.
Hassen gives an extreme example of problems concerning the controversy between cultures. You are a Finnish parent working in, say, Qatar, and your 15 years old girl tells you she has been proposed to become the 3rd wife of a very rich man. What do you do, as you want to protect your child from abuse? Social workers there do not understand you, as this is usual practice in Qatar… Sometimes in Finland, corresponding problems emerge when Muslim parents also are looking for the “best of their child”, and you have to, as a social worker, understand all the sides including the local law.
Simply by making laws pressuring people to fit in a new culture will not work. He gives an example of French law banning religious dressing and symbols in the public sphere. He feels that these kinds of restrictions can easily backfire and lead to alienation and radicalization of both the religious groups and society at large. When differences of social groups are emphasized, the ones becoming desperate extremists and the others generalizing and judging, integration of immigrants into the society becomes harder. Hassen insists: “Don’t ever make a law to restrict Muslim clothes!”
He adds that we should, in the dressing question, also make comparisons with whether Roma women are allowed to wear their traditional clothes, whether Finnish women are allowed to be topless, and how the press treated Sanna Marin’s clothes or private parties when she was PM. All those are examples of controlling women and opposing gender equality, which is a kind of mental violence.
One question certainly soon coming to Finland too will be laws concerning checking the virginity of women and repairing hymens. Then there will arise questions, whether the women empower themselves or whether they just obey to pressure from other persons.
Hassen reminds, that Western societies are not necessarily model states either. Politicians or schoolteachers hating LGBT people are allowed to discriminate against them unpunished. And they too often take the side of Israel against the Palestinian cause. Hassen sees colonialism still as a big problem for the progressive values.